PlantMed

Looks like a recurrence is slowly emerging next to where I had BCC removed by ED&C last summer, under eye. And there's a little thing growing on side of nose, and another little thing - perhaps a set, it's hard to tell because they're tiny - under the other eye.

Dietary stuff I'm doing in an attempt at prevention: almost daily green tea, almost daily raspberries, almost daily broccoli sprouts, not much fat. I've also started taking vitamin D.

I think the achy teeth/gums is vitamin A related - my diet aside from the above is fairly lousy, and it was getting to the point where in middle of almost every night I'd wake up with teeth/gums aching, and my skin was looking about twice as old as it is. Started putting Differin (vitamin A analogue, gentler than Retin-A) on face, and the teeth&gums quit complaining almost immediately.

so you win some, you lose some.
I wish someone sold do-it-yourself biopsy kits. I don't want to have to wait N weeks and drive an hour and a half to get these verified.

Political orientation carries over into medical approach. A conservative M.D. will be among the last to adopt new and improved techniques; conversely, a more openminded doc. will be among the first to try treating pregnant women with thalidomide. So basically if you have a "riskiness profile" that you're comfortable with in your life, having a doc with a different one means you're not getting the care that you'd want. And when the result of their decisions/influence is disastrous, you'll be kicking yourself more if it went against your normal tendencies, than if it was consistent with them.

Yes, I speak from experience (which comes from making bad decisions)

Hint: when one of the arguments trotted out is "The long-term results [of new treatment X] aren't known", that's a sign that you're talking to a conservative, who prefers making old mistakes.

On the other hand, a doc with an ophidian bedside manner is not so good in any case, regardless of politics. Not to cast aspersions on the ophidians...

On the lentigo maligna on chest (recounted here) - the area's still very red compared to surrounding skin, doesn't seem to be blending in. Whether this is significant I do not know.

On the hole in leg (here) from about a month ago - it's pretty much healed, but with a fair amount of scarring. As for its putative satellite BCC (which may or may not be one), I put duct tape on it about a week ago, will take it off eventually and see what's under the rock.

And, as for face - boy, do I love acne. When you're applying camouflage crud to formerly-treated-now-red spots on your nose, and you notice some red raised swellings popping up nearby, but then after you let your nose go naked again they GO AWAY instead of continuing to enlarge...it's very nice. Nothing new has popped up in the BCC department, but the undereye treated spot is still recovering from secondary infection and a little red.

After the false starts and poor results of last summer/fall, my indoor peplus plantation is growing like crazy. I suspect that the problem back then was that, upon collecting the plants from relatively dry clay-ish soil, most of the root system was left in the ground. (and misting them was the final straw).

The plants taken later in fall, when tiny, from rain-saturated soil, are doing just fine. They get about 16 hrs a day of fluorescent light (a shoplight, just a few inches above the plants, with I think 1 "warm" tube and 1 "cool" one) and infrequent watering. For a while out of laziness I was leaving the light on all the time, and (perhaps coincidentally) in some of the containers they started to get rust - or something - that caused the tip of the leaf to start to brown. I evicted the infected, and cut back the light, and the remaining crop stayed healthy.

When you need sap, if you take it from near the top of the plant, what's left of the plant can regenerate.

Right now there's an ad up top for raspberry skin cancer cream, fair use excerpt as follows:

Bill told me that he had had a bit of skin cancer on a nipple when he got the product in so he started putting it on that bump morning, noon and night. He has a device that measures the energetic level of a skin cancer. The higher the level, the more active the skin cancer was. I didn't know how that thing worked, but I could understand that the more active a skin cancer was, the higher the reading would be. Well, at least I was open to the concept.

As he was trying out a new product, Bill decided to measure his skin cancer's energy level. It was 80 the day he started putting that cream on the cancer.. The very next day that cancer's energy level was down to 30. And the day after it measured 0, zip, no more energy in that cancer.[and then it fell off]

I'm gullible, but THAT is pushing it.

The infomercial does say that the cream has ellagic acid in it, which a) comes from raspberries and b) is good (anticancer) stuff, but it is a REALLY DUMB IDEA - way worse that using E. peplus - to put a cream on a skin cancer and assume that's all's well when you can't see the cancer anymore. They can go deep. The cream can fix things on top, the way Efudex does, the way imiquimod often does, but not cure the tissue underneath. Then you've got a real problem on your hands (or face)

Pay no attention to the ad above the blog.

(from previous post:)"If you put [spurge sap] on an area where a herpesvirus aka cold sore once thrived (e.g. above lip; see Miss Aldara meets Mister Herpes at the Cancer Center), expect the HSV to return" ...uh, yeah. And, when it returns, what do you think it's going to do when you wash your face and it discovers all those other patches of undefended raw flesh that you're treating at the same time?

Right. Do not treat a spot with history of cold sore at the same time that you're treating a spot without, unless you are more skilled than I at avoiding infection.

Interesting thing about the secondary herpes infection though, which I got in the spot under my eye, namely upon healing it behaved just like the one above lip had done last fall - i.e. as the flesh was filling in, the putative former-cancer-spot showed up as a very distinct raised spot of white tissue. I _really_ wish I had a tame dermatologist to do biopsies so I could find out what's going on there - is it old scaffolding? repentant formerly-cancerous cells eager to redeem themselves? or something more ominous...

It really sucks to have skin that doesn't regenerate well. So you treat a spot for skin cancer, and it makes a hole, and you want the hole to fill in, so what do you do, apply something that will encourage tissue regrowth? how do you know that whatever you put on won't also encourage cancer regrowth?

But it's nice to have a face that can once again be shown in society unmediated by bandaids.

I'm pretty much done with this round (about 5 applications total, once every 2-3 days) - I did [lateral] brow, lip, nose to a minor degree, and a spot about an inch below the brow one that _might_ have been a sprout from the brow. (or it might have just been an AK, I don't know).

I will say this - it seems to be at least an order of magnitude (i.e. 10x) more powerful than imiquimod.

What [else] I've learned:

You run through a lot of bandaids.

When you look like a mummy, you'll want someone else to do your shopping.

The first day you come in to work in said mummy outfit will be the day all employees are told to assemble for a Company Photo (I kid you not)

The brow area was infected (but improving) when I started with the spurge sap applications; I should have waited until the infection was gone, since the whole area (not just where the suspicious growth had been) kind of got munched on.

Infection probably came from applying coverup (makeup) stick on top of raw flesh (during imiquimod applications). Don't do this. It doesn't work well, and it annoys the flesh.

Different skin areas react very differently to sap, and tender flesh around the eye is particularly easy to chew away.

The bag under your eye - normally empty and neatly folded - may become full and bulging. This is not permanent and does not mean that you're gonna die; it just means that it's draining stuff.

If you wash the sap off, be thorough; don't just dab at it with a moistened paper towel, that'll just spread it.

If you put it on an area where a herpesvirus aka cold sore once thrived (e.g. above lip; see "Miss Aldara meets Mister Herpes at the Cancer Center" post), expect the HSV to return (and make you miserable). I could have taken stuff for it, but remembering how it helped (although not enough,obviously) to clear out suspicious areas last fall, I tried to just let it take its natural course.

Vague impressions only:
I think it would have been better NOT to hit the spots with imiquimod while I was waiting for a free slot of time to blast skin with peplus; It seems like you want the skin growth to be growing along, merrily and carefree, until WHACK! you slam it with sap. A currently-imiquimod-stressed area is a forewarned area, you've lost the element of surprise. (Possibly due to revved up protective mechanisms like apo J which can protect cancer cells)

Plus - in the case of my nose at least - the existence of imiquimod oozes(sorry...) meant that after first peplus application(s?) the spots rapidly became solid scab, so there was no longer skin to put it on.

Also, I was wary of turning the nose into a smoking ruin, so only gave it a few hours of sap exposure for the first couple of applications, and that might not have been shocking enough.

I think I'll give the nose a month or so to let its guard down, then hit it again, harder.

Also, more laterally above lip there's a spot that, for a while there, would have been a vampire's dream - a little spring, oozing blood from a little tiny spot, that took a LONG time of pressure to stop. I'm hitting that spot again tonight - hoping not to end up red-faced because of it though.
Update: hitting it again did not help, it barely reacted.

Another thing that _might_ be true - not sure yet - is that during the series of applications there's a balance between "chewing away" and regeneration, and it may be that if you _stop_ the sap completely when there's a chunk chewed away, that the regeneration isn't sufficient, that it needs occasional light sapping as it's growing back, to keep it growing back. Had a little undereye chunk out, that I'm trying to grow back.

Something to consider - lymph from inflammation in the center of your face (lip, nose area, a little forehead?) all drains to your brain as I recall. One of the things that may cause mental deterioration is inflammatory molecules in your brain. So if you hit central face area in order to inflame it in order to kill off cancer cells, you may also be killing off cells that you're rather more fond of...)

and another, more minor concern - what if there are [relatively more major] blood vessels in the area that you're treating? Several times when I treated area around scar above lip it would start hurting/throbbing along with heartbeat, making me wonder if the sap wasn't trying to chew through an artery. (not a big one presumably)

many unknowns...which is why you shouldn't mess with experimental stuff unless you're willing to accept failure, which in the case of skin cancer - or any other kind - could be pretty unpleasant.

Do not get sap in eye.. Band-aids are good for covering up the sapped area to prevent inadvertent touching (by hair, fingers, or clothing) that could then transfer sap to eye.

My facial BCCs are: eyebrow, upper lip nestled adjacent to scar, tip of nose (several related spots, including on columella (between your nostrils)); 1 place on nose tip was biopsy confirmed, but it's not among the spots acting up now.

I've started whomping the BCCs with spurge sap; I now look like something the cat dragged in, face down. Flaunting my face (what little of it is not covered by bandaids) at work is not fun.

I'd posted a while back on how applying E. peplus to lip seemed to make my teeth ache deep in their sockets, and the concern that this is probably not good for teeth or gums. When I started the nose application, same thing happened, so it seems to be a real effect not a coincidence.

Unfortunately one of the BCCs is very close to vermilion of upper lip, entirely too close to teeth and gums as the crow flies (or as the sap diffuses) - so when I applied sap to this one, I stuck a thawed thin frozen carrot slice (cross section) between lip and teeth, and kept it there all day. Viola, no aching. Didn't use it overnight though, and there was some aching then. Whether it's the barrier, or the pressure, or essence of carrot, or placebo effect, I don't know.
(update: have since used it overnight, but not with complete success; dreamed about food, and, well, it wasn't there anymore in the morning.)

I was also worried about the eyebrow BCC; given that it's so close to eye, what if the sap doesn't actually have to touch the eye? - what if sap diffusion through skin will reach eye anyway, analogous to the gum/tooth ache when sap is applied near them?

But to my relief it didn't happen, the eye didn't turn red. If the BCC spot gets weepy though, it might become a hazard. Band aids good.

The varieties of reaction are fascinating. Most typical is the pink-gray-brown bullseye, but most of my nose just turned scaly and reptilian. Fortunately that layer is coming off though. I think that's probably due to peplus on skin that was recently and generally abused by imiquimod.

On protecting against secondary infection -
Your choices are

1) being really careful
2) betadine
3) polysporin
4) honey
(although you have to wonder how much of its antibiotic effect is from antibiotic residues...)

And I've been using, well, all of the above.

Then I remembered reading rumblings on the web about sugar intake and cancer (apparently no definitive evidence though), and got nervous about feeding mine with honey. So I think I've stopped...

However honey appears to help prevent surgery-related tumours and reduce the incidence of adhesions after surgery, which is pretty cool.

From here

The white sap of petty spurge (Euphorbia peplus), also called cancer weed or radium weed, is excellent on skin cancers and insensitive external tumors. Skin cancers may also be destroyed by repeatedly applying a drop of 35% hydrogen peroxide, preferably protecting the surrounding skin with a barrier cream.

However, the most effective way to remove skin cancer, melanoma and tumors close to the skin, possibly including breast tumors, is to apply an 'Escharotic'. These are caustic remedies, commonly with zinc chloride and the herb bloodroot as main ingredients. These may be available from some health shops or naturopaths. Skin cancers may become inflamed for a few days and then form dry pus (an eschar) and fall out after about 10 days.

Before you rush out to buy the stuff, read this abstract on [negative] Consequences of using escharotic agents as primary treatment for nonmelanoma skin cancer.

Dermatologist IDd last summer, biopsy confirmed.

Do not get in eye

I'd tried both imiquimod and peplus sap on this BCC, it just didn't seem to react. So then I upped the ante and (it being winter) cut a twig off some poison oak (active ingredient is urushiol), and rubbed the cut end on the BCC. It reacted. Was not fun. Last week the scab came off, leaving pink skin but still the outline of the BCC was visible. So I tried the peplus once more - figuring that on new skin it's more likely to react - and covered it with duct tape to increase moisture and thus absorption of active ingredient; checked it 48 hrs later, and yes it had reacted. Differently from the "typical" E. peplus reaction though - just blister, no scab in middle. Then a couple days later, when the blister skin was peeling off, put E. peplus on the raw spot. It REACTED - had to wash it off after 6 hours or so, and the rest of the day it felt like I was walking around with a golf ball under the skin.

Yes, it's possible to overdo it - when I looked at what I'd done that evening (yesterday), the sap had pretty much eaten all the way through the skin. Ooops. Well, there won't be a superficial BCC there anymore.

At least today it doesn't hurt to walk anymore. And I am very glad that this did not happen on my face.

Let this be a lesson to you - guinea pigs aren't always success stories.
2 days later, more evidence supporting the previous statement - I've noticed what looks like a new small superficial BCC an inch or two away from the old one. Not good.

Aside, on poison oak -
Recent dermatologist said that poison oak plus duct tape cured a wart he had.

[my recollection- check with real doctor before taking this at face value:]
A Lentigo maligna looks like an "age spot", but is not uniformly colored. Eventually (perhaps after years or decades(?)) it can turn into melanoma.

Do not get in eye

I had one on my chest (dermatologist ID'd last summer, but didn't biopsy - she did say it ought to come out though). Last month, at the same time that all hell was breaking loose on face, it seemed like I was starting to feel an itch or ache from it, which (if not imaginary) was decidedly bad news, and meant I should have gone to dermatologist forthwith for biopsy and likely excision.

Instead I used E. peplus. Applied every third day (covered with band-aid) for I think two weeks. Got a good strong reaction - brown scab center, surrounded by grey, surrounded by pink.

At 1 point after a couple of applications the scab plus a clump of pus-like underlying tissue was stuck to the bandaid and pulled out, showing a disturbingly deep cavity - I hastily put it all back the way it had been. However it did fill in, and is now new pink skin, no sign of lentigo remains.

Keep in mind that the normal-appearing skin around an abnormal spot may itself be abnormal, and that just treating the visibly abnormal spot may not be sufficient. If I were doing it over again, I'd probably treat a larger area.

from the E. peplus patent application, not sure as to significance but...:
"...at very low concentrations, sap from Euphorbia peplus and Euphorbia hirta induced differentiation of malignant melanoma cells so that they adopted the morphological appearance of normal melanocytes. "

Do not get in eye

(earlier post - which was based on the person's own usage - here.)

from email:

[it has] different effects on different areas of the body...
...usually apply Betadine (Iodine) if any infection appears present.

Typically (on the face eg) the spot will become "angry" looking, and break out into a weeping type sore. You may also see a line or "lines" moving out from the spot. These also may breakout through the skin.

Both areas of reaction may take 2-3 weeks to settle, and scab over, and it can look quite messy for a while.

Past this point, the area should start to heal and return to normal without the cancer.

Applying the sap daily for 3-4 days followed by every 2nd-3rd day may be a better approach for some people.

Certainly, reactions can vary from person to person but the biggest risk is from secondary infection and it is surprising how many people miss this point.